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This programme contains strong
language and discussions of murder.

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This heavy industrial hammer

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was aimed directly at the forehead.

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So, by deliberately
hitting her in this way,

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you are intentionally
causing her death.

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I don't ever remember
wanting to hurt my wife.

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Was he so blinded,

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he could've actually not realised
what he was doing?

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I can't stand here
and say I'm going to listen to

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the man that's just
bumped off his wife.

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She was wild.
There was something in her eyes

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and on her face
that really frightened me,

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and I thought this was much more
dramatic than a few broken plates.

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He's got to boiling point.

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I don't think he's a bad person,
but he has to pay,

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because the bad deed
was very, very bad.

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Can we trust our justice system?

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To find out, we're re-enacting
an entire real murder trial.

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You chose to use this hammer.

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Yes.

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Word for word, with actors.

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To aim the shots,
and basically bash her brains in.

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She's still shouting, and I go
to put my hand over her mouth,

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but I don't know,
I don't know why I put my hands
round her throat instead.

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But just as in a real court,
the jurors are ordinary people.

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God, I just feel so sorry for her.

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I believe that there are two sides
to every story.

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I don't care what she said.

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And in this
ground-breaking experiment,

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there is a key difference.

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There isn't just one jury.

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There's two.

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Both unaware of each other.

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I wanted to give him a hug.
Is it crocodile tears or not?

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I don't wanna do this any more.

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They'll watch the same trial,

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but will they reach
the same verdict?

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Do you find the defendant
guilty or not guilty of murder?

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Brace yourselves.  Yeah.

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Today, both juries
will start deliberations.

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They must each decide
if John Reisdale is guilty

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of murder or manslaughter.

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Right. Good morning, everybody.

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Well, we're now...

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But first are the closing speeches.

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Right. Over to you, Mr Thomas.

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Starting with the Prosecution.

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Ladies and gentlemen,
our argument is very simple.

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At the time of the killing

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the defendant had not lost
his self-control.

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He was angry,
and he was really angry.

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He put his hands around her throat

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and started to strangle her.
What did he do then?

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Because this is
the crucial issue in this case.

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He stopped. Why did he stop?

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Had he continued strangling her
and killed her,

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you may think that he would have had

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a better argument
for at least at this point,

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not acting under control.

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But he didn't.

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Why would this defendant
walk out to the foundry

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and then come back?

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He's going to get the hammer.

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To bring it back, go into the house,

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Helen is on the floor,
semiconscious or unconscious,

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and then he inflicts
the mortal blows.

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Not once, not twice.

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But three times.

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Very controlled actions.

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That is why,
ladies and gentlemen,

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we say that
at the time of the killing,

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he hadn't lost self-control.

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And if he hadn't,

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then he must be guilty of murder.

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Your honour, thank you.

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Members of the jury,

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John Reisdale, we say,
lost control of himself that day,

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becoming so overwhelmed
by emotion or passion,

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so engulfed by the circumstances
in which he found himself,

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that what occurred then
is not properly

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to be categorised as murder,

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but is rightly
to be described as manslaughter.

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He repeatedly told his friends
of his love for Helen.

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What caused such a person to react

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in such a catastrophic way,
as you know he did?

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He said this.

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"A cloud of something
I don't recognise came over me."

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"I had no control.
I grabbed the hammer,

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and I hit her in the face with it."

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I ask you to look inside the man,

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and to bring some proper,
decent understanding

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to their relationship.

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John Reisdale, with his simply
unswerving blind love for her.

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And on his behalf, I only ask
for justice to be done.

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Thank you very much.

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Ladies and gentlemen,

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what I'm going to do now
is to ask you to retire

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to consider your verdicts.
It's your decision.

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And you have to make the decision
without any emotion,

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and I say without any emotion.

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Your verdict has to be a decision
which all 12 of you are agreed.

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You are adjourned, thank you.

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The juries retire to deliberate.

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Legal experts will watch

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to see how
they reach their verdicts.

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I've never seen what goes on behind
closed doors in a jury, no-one has.

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Laws around secrecy

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means real juries
can never be observed,

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or reveal how
they reached their decisions.

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It's strangely thrilling.

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It is exciting to be able to see

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something that
I've not been able to see

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in three decades
of being in the justice system.

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I'm really fascinated to know

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how they're going to
try to convince one another.

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Hey, this is serious.

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Now is the moment of truth,
and we have to get it right,

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because this person's life
is basically in your hands.

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There's a lot of responsibility
on our shoulders.

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I want my glasses.

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Both juries have selected
a foreperson to manage

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the discussions
during the deliberations.

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Is everybody ready?

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In the blue jury,
Emily has been elected.

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Oh, my gosh.  Right.

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And in the red jury, it's Neil.

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This is more serious.

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The jurors will discuss
the case in private,

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without any outside interference.

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This is a bit scary.

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It will be up to them alone
to come to a verdict.

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We actually have to
make a decision now.

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Yeah, shit's got real.

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Do you want to do
an initial vote first?

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Get a starting point, and then
see how far we've got to go.

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There's two victims
in this case, all right?

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You've got Helen,
but he's also a victim, all right?

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So, the first day, I changed
from murder to manslaughter

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and I haven't looked back
from that day. Not once.

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He's not at any point
denied what he did.

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He seems such an honest guy.

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So for me, there is just
no doubt it's manslaughter.

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If I followed my heart,
it would be murder.

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But at the end of the day,
we cannot prove it.

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You got to separate
your emotions from the fact.

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I'm definitely manslaughter.

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With stopping the strangulation
and then going onto the hammer,

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to me he is obviously
trying to seriously hurt her.

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I think it's murder.

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I can't say that I would
go and pick something up

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and then use excessive force.

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That's the part for me.

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So I still really believe
that it's murder.

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I don't think anything's
going to change my mind.

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When you lose your temper,
you know what you're doing.

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So I think
he knew what he was doing.

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I'm feeling adamant it's murder.

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I've been on the murder side
for a few days.

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Um...

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Nothing that I heard today
changed my mind.

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I was absolutely committed
to the idea that it was a murder.

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I would probably go more murder.

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I'm on the fence.

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You must be leaning
towards one or the other?

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No. Because there
are a couple of things

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I want to listen to,
and then that will make up my mind.

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But you said that yesterday
and you said it Friday,

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so we haven't moved on anywhere.

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I'm still not sure,

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because it is very difficult to
not be emotional about it.

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It's as clear as mud,
as I'm concerned.

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I don't believe there isn't anyone
sitting in this room that doesn't

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have a bending towards
one or the other. I'm sorry.

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Right, so we've got
three for manslaughter,

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six for murder
and three for don't know.

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Interesting, OK.

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How on earth are we going to
come to a consensus?

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We've got a long way to go.

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I'm frustrated that,
with everything we've heard,

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there are still individuals
that believe

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and are adamant that this is murder.

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I'm on the back foot,

183
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and that gives me
even more determination to fight.

184
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He's put up with so much shit.

185
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That build-up of all of the abuse

186
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and nasty treatment even on the day
would be considered almost revenge,

187
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even if he hasn't gone out
to plan it in that moment.

188
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So, my question to you, Chris, is,

189
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could you honestly say
that the events that

190
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led up to him doing his act
was revenge

191
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,440
from what anything
that we've read or seen?

192
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,120
Mm.

193
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,080
I don't think he pre-planned it.
So it's not revenge.  No, but...

194
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,160
I think in the moment
you can have revenge.

195
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,000
Revenge has to be pre-planned.

196
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,800
No, it doesn't.
OK, but revenge to what?

197
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,600
Because you've just
fucked my life up.

198
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,240
You've psychologically abused me.

199
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,480
You spoke shit to my kids,
you spoke shit to me,

200
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,560
you've ruined my life,
you're unconscious...

201
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,840
Is that revenge or loss of control?
Revenge.

202
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,160
I have no evidence
in front of me that says,

203
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,160
here is a man that thought,
"Do you know what?

204
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,120
"You fucker, I'm going to come out
and I'm going to gun you down."

205
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,600
At no point have I seen that
in any statements.

206
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,440
It's getting quite serious now.

207
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,720
People sort of talk at you a lot,
and that's quite annoying.

208
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,960
Everyone is respectful
of each other, but

209
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,800
I can see it turning sour.

210
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,480
They do argue a lot,
this isn't out of the ordinary.

211
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,280
Why is it in this moment
he lost the control?

212
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,840
Does it not actually support
the fact that he's lost control,

213
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,600
the fact that he's previously
always walked away,

214
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,320
and now the bugger ain't walked
away, and he's killed her?

215
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,160
So it actually makes me think more,
he's lost his shit.

216
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,000
I'm trying to talk
and I'm having, "Oh, no, no."

217
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,160
I'm just saying how I feel.

218
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,000
In that moment,
he wanted revenge on her.

219
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,200
"I'm sick of you doing this,
I'm going to get you."

220
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,240
It's your opinion, and you are
entitled to that, Rosie.

221
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,520
I think it's important to understand

222
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,120
that debates are different
to arguments.

223
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,840
I will express myself
in a forthright way,

224
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,840
that is just the way I am
and I ain't changed,

225
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,400
I'm not going to change now.

226
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,680
I'm not worried
what people think of me.

227
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,400
If I feel passionately
about something I will go gung-ho,

228
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,160
because that's how I feel about it.

229
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,680
It's not a joke.

230
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,200
This is a man's life.

231
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,000
There is definitely an opportunity
for this to go the wrong way.

232
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,000
In the trial of John Reisdale...

233
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,800
Let's go round in a circle, yeah?

234
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,200
..the blue jury are also
taking an early vote.

235
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,960
As it's gone on,

236
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,640
there's nothing that's shown me
that it is manslaughter.

237
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,560
Like, he remembers
hitting her with the hammer.

238
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,960
So, yeah, as far as
I'm concerned, murder.

239
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,000
Definitely still thinking
it is murder.

240
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,280
I'm just sat at murder,
I've done my best to look at

241
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,840
the possible ways
in which it can be manslaughter,

242
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,240
but I just can't see it.

243
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,880
My first day
I was definitely saying murder,

244
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,800
then I started
getting more information

245
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,720
and I was leaning
towards manslaughter.

246
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,920
Aaron?  I've been manslaughter
from the beginning.

247
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,600
Yeah, but why?
Yeah, go on. We'll get into that.

248
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,160
That name murderer, or that label
murderer, is a very strong label.

249
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,920
And when I look at that man,
I don't see a murderer.
That's right.

250
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,600
There is...only so much
someone can take,

251
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,320
but was it enough?

252
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,560
I don't know.

253
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,240
So right now,
I'm manslaughter.

254
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,600
And now I'm on
the fence again.

255
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,320
Undecided.

256
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,960
HE CHUFFS PENSIVELY

257
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,920
Can I say undecided?
Yeah.

258
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,480
If undecided is
an option, I'm undecided.

259
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,200
I think I'm back to
unsure again.

260
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,120
The act itself was
so severe,

261
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,480
but I'm really
still unsure.

262
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,720
Well, we all know I'm a bit
of a yo-yo

263
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:16,960
in this case, aren't I,

264
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,400
with the old verdict,

265
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,040
and I've gone back
to "Don't know", so...

266
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,120
Hmmm.  Mm-hm.

267
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:26,720
After the vote,

268
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,160
half the jurors have yet
to come to a verdict.

269
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,520
It'll be unanimous undecided
then, won't it?

270
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,560
Better get a
new jury in.

271
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:35,960
LAUGHTER

272
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,160
We need the undecided
people to decide.

273
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,400
To be decided.

274
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,760
To me, it's as clear as day
that John did murder Helen.

275
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,240
But people need to start
making a decision.

276
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,400
In that minute, he
hated her, you know,

277
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,400
because the thing is,
someone you love,

278
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,120
you're not just
gonna pick up a hammer

279
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,560
and start hitting them
in the head.

280
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,320
Yeah, but...he doesn't
hate her at all.

281
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,600
This sounds horrendous,

282
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,800
but I think you can
physically harm someone

283
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,880
and he still had
an element of love,

284
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,760
I don't think
he hated her.

285
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,440
I've lived with
an angry person

286
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,320
that other people would
think was a lovely person,

287
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,920
so what I'm saying
to you is

288
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,120
you can't judge a book
by the cover.

289
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,040
I've been in relationships where
everybody's seeing that

290
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,960
white picket fence,
they're not seeing what's behind.

291
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,440
I think John left strangling her,

292
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:32,920
went and got the hammer

293
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,760
and he remembers the first strike.

294
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,440
I just want to keep
reminding people of that.

295
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,200
As far as I'm concerned,
it seemed like he actually

296
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,440
knew what he was doing.

297
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,520
She wasn't fighting back,
she was on the floor,

298
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,800
there were no marks
on him.

299
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,240
I'm always, in my head, sort
of making an excuse for the crime

300
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,920
that was committed...

301
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,560
As much as I empathise for John,
he...

302
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,280
..made that choice to stand up,
pick up the hammer, and...

303
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,400
..you know commit
that act of violence.

304
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,080
I think he intended to
cause serious bodily harm

305
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:19,080
and unfortunately,
that first strike alone,
they've said,

306
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:21,640
from the outset, she
wouldn't have survived that.

307
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,200
When I look at the evidence,
it leads me to murder.

308
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,240
Well done, Emily.

309
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,280
Liberty, what do you think?

310
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:44,680
I think it's murder.

311
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,000
He was in control when
he got the hammer

312
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,200
and did the first hit,
that's what I think.

313
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,840
Aaron, what's your
response to that?

314
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,520
Anybody pushed to boiling
point can do anything.

315
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,480
What's to say he didn't
just spiral

316
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:02,600
and just keep going?

317
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,800
I definitely identify
with John.

318
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,240
They're not looking at him
as a person,

319
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,360
as a human being,

320
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,080
they're not
understanding that

321
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:16,200
anybody can get to that point,
even I could get to that point.

322
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,240
Here we go.

323
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,520
Correct me if I'm wrong,

324
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,960
or if anyone
thinks differently,

325
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,360
this is the point where

326
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,480
she is throwing stuff
at him, right?

327
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,200
Now, the evidence
we have is that

328
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,200
he knew that she
was a violent person.

329
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,200
I don't think that
he was truly at fear

330
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,200
of serious violence.
She'd spat at him,

331
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,880
she's thrown things
at him, it was escalating.

332
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,080
But she hasn't hit him,
she hasn't strangled him,

333
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,960
she hasn't gone to stab him,
I don't think,

334
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,160
that he was fearing
for his life at that time.

335
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,200
It would be a
trigger point, for me,

336
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,240
the spitting.

337
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,120
There are some that
have been 100% murder,

338
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,200
from a very early stage.

339
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,560
And there are a few that
are just sitting on fence.

340
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,560
And we've got to focus on
those individuals,

341
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:09,600
and get them thinking

342
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,240
outside of their box.

343
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,600
I think being spat at
is, like,

344
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,480
the worst... I would
rather...take a smack

345
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,920
to the face

346
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,920
than get spat at.
That's just like...

347
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,000
..disgusting, yeah.

348
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,560
I don't think any of us can say,

349
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,320
"I would definitely not
kill someone."

350
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,440
It could be, someone spits at ya,

351
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,880
you find something on the floor,
so you throw it,

352
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,320
it hits them on the head,
they fall back, whack their head

353
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,440
and now you've got someone
that's dead.

354
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,720
Whatever happens,

355
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,800
the guy going to prison,
right?  Yeah.  Yeah.

356
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,280
He's paying for this.
Yeah.

357
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,720
I actually feel very sorry
for him.

358
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,320
At the beginning of the week,

359
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,560
everyone was like,
"Murder, murder, murder."

360
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,400
Now people are, like, shifting.

361
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,120
Our jury had some
really strong characters

362
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,880
trying to persuade a
lot of people.

363
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,480
It's critical...

364
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,240
Ricky is adamant
on manslaughter

365
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,320
and he's made us realise
that John was actually...

366
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,080
..a good lad.

367
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:16,360
Yeah, I think John
lost control,

368
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,000
so taking everything
into consideration,

369
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,280
manslaughter for me.

370
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:24,640
WHISPERS:  This guy...

371
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,120
He caused the death...

372
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,200
Did he do it on purpose?

373
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,280
Or did he do it
in a fit of temper?

374
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,880
But there are some people
that lose their shit

375
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,760
and do something,
and things happens.

376
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,840
I agree.

377
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,880
Some of the jurors helped
me making up my mind,

378
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,680
you can only push people
so far before they break,

379
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,800
and Helen pushed and
pushed, and John broke.

380
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,360
I've listened

381
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,560
and I cannot, unless
I was standing there,

382
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,880
say that he knew
what he was doing,

383
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,320
so I've gotta say manslaughter.

384
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:06,880
Well done, Gary.

385
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,400
It's definitely taken
a more serious turn.

386
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,520
If somebody is
a very persuasive character,

387
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,840
who can get other people
around to their way of thinking,

388
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,040
it doesn't mean
their way is the right way.

389
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,640
I don't want to be
blaming her.

390
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,600
I kind of feel like from
what we've heard,

391
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,080
he did more to her,
that day, to trigger her

392
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:34,240
than the other way round.

393
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,480
Based on the facts
of what we've got here,

394
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,560
based on what
people have said,

395
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,160
he could have feared
that she was gonna do

396
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,240
something nasty.

397
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,080
Can we all just agree
something here?

398
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,720
Because this has been doing
my head in for a few days.

399
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,600
At the moment,
we're basing fact

400
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,160
on...his story
and he could be lying,

401
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,400
so how can we say
the fact is he can't remember,

402
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,160
that's not a fucking fact.

403
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,160
But we have to take them
as facts cos that's

404
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,880
what we've been directed
to do.  Yeah.

405
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,600
We've been given them, these
are the facts of the case.

406
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,920
Let's go...for a break

407
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,120
because otherwise someone is going
to end up...  Go on a break?

408
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:16,480
Yeah, yeah, yup.

409
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,680
There are some people in life,

410
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,800
who are just difficult to people.

411
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,880
There's probably two other people
that are dictating what we can

412
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,280
and can't use as...
To make our decisions.

413
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,600
We can do what we want.
They don't fucking know.

414
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,200
We can, we can, we can!
They don't know any more than us.

415
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:38,720
If there's no right or wrong,

416
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,040
we are all going to have
difference of opinion.

417
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,160
I get annoyed when people, like,

418
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,080
think that they're
the puppet masters,

419
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:48,200
who think that they're leading
your decision

420
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,560
when it has nothing to do with that
whatsoever.

421
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Wind your neck in.

422
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,520
I don't want to, like...bend,

423
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,840
change my opinion,

424
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,400
just because I feel like
I'm being pressured to do it.

425
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,000
Yeah.  Absolutely.

426
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,480
This is the thing, I think it is now

427
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,360
turned into, like egos, straight up.

428
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,960
Can you see yourself,
any of you at the minute,

429
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,840
being 100% in your verdict?  I can't.

430
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,720
I can, yeah.

431
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,640
And I believe it was...murder.

432
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,920
It's day two of deliberations

433
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,720
and to declare a verdict,

434
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,640
the juries must reach
a unanimous decision.

435
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,520
I don't think I'm going to budge
ever, I don't think it'll change...

436
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,200
So you're on manslaughter, innit?

437
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,680
I reckon Oli will always be murder

438
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,480
and he'll always be manslaughter,

439
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,480
and we'll have a problem, innit!

440
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,600
Time to deliberate, guys.

441
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,800
Oh, stress, back to stress.

442
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,000
There's a lot of work to do,
to get everyone on the same page.

443
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,320
The other jurors can be very
emotional,

444
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:07,040
but the judge has been very clear
in his instructions,

445
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,400
and we need to come up
with a verdict.

446
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:14,520
To decide a defendant
"lost control",

447
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,040
a jury must be sure
that a reasonable person

448
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,520
in the same circumstances
might have committed the same act.

449
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,480
You have to show that
a person of the same sex

450
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,840
and age as you,

451
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,920
a person with normal tolerance,

452
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,920
normal self-restraint,

453
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,200
would have acted in the same
way as you.

454
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,800
LAUGHTER ECHOES

455
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,520
In shorthand, a reasonable person

456
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,920
would have done what you did,
given what you were going through.

457
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,280
If a jury is sure that a reasonable
person would not have acted

458
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,000
like the defendant,

459
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,400
the defendant must be
guilty of murder.

460
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,200
Is John a reasonable guy?
And my answer's "Yes"

461
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,000
He had, obviously,
emotional abuse,

462
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,960
there was financial abuse,
there was mental abuse,

463
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,040
he had physical abuse.

464
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,000
Could these things
collectively make a man

465
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,040
have a loss of control?

466
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,200
For me, that's a tick.

467
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,920
I don't think John's
a reasonable man.

468
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,800
A reasonable man wouldn't
have strangled his wife

469
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,280
and then, you know,
killed her with a hammer

470
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,400
in such a brutal fashion.

471
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,120
People can definitely be
persuaded, so...

472
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,480
My approach is to keep
reminding people

473
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,280
what John actually
did on that day.

474
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,760
A reasonable man would
not have

475
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,760
smashed her brains in
with a hammer.

476
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,880
He might have had a
loss of control,

477
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,520
but as a reasonable person,
it's a possibility.

478
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,840
And hit someone in the
head with a hammer?

479
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,160
If anybody pushes me
too far,

480
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,600
I can't say I wouldn't do
the same thing.

481
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,040
Is your point

482
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,040
that none of us have
gone through

483
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,880
the same abuse
that John went through?

484
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,960
I have, not the
same, but similar.

485
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,280
I've had it where
I'm provoking my ex.

486
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,120
And I'm telling him like,
"What, you gonna hit me?"

487
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,920
And he's not hit me,
he's hit a wall.

488
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,400
Helen would prod and poke
in her relationships

489
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,240
and it took me back
to a time

490
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,960
where I would have
arguments with my ex

491
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,280
and I would goad him.

492
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,200
I've taken myself into
these experiences,

493
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,440
yeah, she's doing that,

494
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,560
but I've done that

495
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,160
and I'm still here.

496
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,240
I haven't been killed.

497
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,640
Do you think the
reasonable man

498
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,800
would've done
what John did?  No.

499
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,120
So then your answer
must be murder.  Exactly.

500
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,520
Yeah, I'm seeing murder.

501
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,760
We all know what men
are capable of,

502
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,480
with them triggers.

503
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,440
But I feel like
I wouldn't deal with that

504
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,880
in this way.

505
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,600
I've gone back and forth
every single day,

506
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,360
and I think I'm murder
now so...

507
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Yeah...

508
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,040
Although he was a
reasonable man on paper,

509
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,240
he didn't, on that
day, behave, to me...

510
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,960
BOTH: ..as a reasonable
man... ..would've done.

511
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,480
A reasonable man
would walk away.

512
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,040
With a gun to the head, then,

513
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,680
I'm going to have
to go with murder.

514
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,720
To be unanimous,

515
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,160
the blue jury still
need three jurors

516
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,800
to turn to a verdict
of murder -

517
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,280
Junior,

518
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,560
Aaron and Lurelle.

519
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,560
It just don't sit right
to me,

520
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,240
that that one question
determines him

521
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,280
to be a murderer.

522
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,680
My head is
all over the place.

523
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,600
I don't feel like the best juror.

524
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,560
I don't feel like the best juror
because...I'm not certain.

525
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,200
And I feel like to be a juror,

526
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,520
you need to be certain
on what you think.

527
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,200
I'm literally fighting
with myself.

528
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,320
If we're still at
this split, are you three

529
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,560
going to go with murder,
then?

530
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,000
Or are we still gonna stay...?
We'll talk about that in a bit.

531
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Cos he said he wanted
a unanimous decision.

532
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,840
Human emotions are
very complicated.  Yes.

533
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,680
I feel like we're gonna be
here a while.

534
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,040
Yeah, so...  I just
couldn't articulate it...

535
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,200
..if everyone...can
shush a little

536
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,880
and we can keep on
going through...

537
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,520
In the red jury,

538
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,920
the verdict is evenly split

539
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,640
between murder
and manslaughter.

540
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,520
I think it would be good
to get rid of

541
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,240
the undecideds at
some point.  Yeah, I agree.

542
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,360
It's like super intense,

543
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,200
it's a real battleground
experience.

544
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,080
But I think Ricky's having
a huge influence on the jury.

545
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,360
Ricky moves discussions
onto reasonable doubt.

546
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,640
If you feel strongly

547
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,360
that you think there
is no way this man

548
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,160
lost control
and he murdered,

549
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,160
you have grounds
to say that.  Yeah.

550
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,360
You have every right to,
yeah.  Oh, yeah!

551
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,680
But if...

552
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,360
If we're saying,
"I'm not sure",

553
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,360
then we have to say
we're not beyond
reasonable doubt.

554
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,800
I... For me, and this
is just talking for me,

555
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,600
that I can completely see
why he would lose self-control

556
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240
and he would just
go bananas

557
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,080
after all those things
that happened.

558
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,720
I think
it's manslaughter.

559
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,480
Well done, Neil.

560
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240
I was 70/30 murder.
Was you?

561
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,000
See what I'm saying?

562
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,520
My hands are tied.

563
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,320
I think it might
be manslaughter.

564
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,520
I don't feel happy about
it though.  No, no, no,

565
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,040
I don't think anyone
does,

566
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,680
don't think anyone does.

567
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,560
I'm not sure he lost
his temper. I'm not sure.

568
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,960
And I'm really not happy
about it,

569
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,680
but I have to say that

570
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,920
that's why I moved
to manslaughter.

571
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,040
Can I just ask Chris,
what do you feel?

572
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,320
It's kind of
telling that you could
take each one of us

573
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,480
individually to give
a timeline of what happened
on that day,

574
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840
and we'd probably all
give a different answer.

575
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,160
I don't know if I can
be 100% sure.

576
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,360
I don't think anybody in
this room thinks, 100%,

577
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,080
that's right, that's wrong.

578
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,000
I think we're all adults
and we're trying to
get the job done

579
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,680
that we've been asked
to do, which is get to
a point where...

580
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,600
..we don't feel comfortable
with it,

581
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,320
but that is more
comfortable than that.

582
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,560
I want to make my
own decision, but if I was
to just be stubborn

583
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,240
and say "No, it's murder,

584
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,400
"I'm not changing my mind,"
it wouldn't be fair,

585
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,440
it wouldn't be a
fair trial at all,

586
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,160
because it ain't
about pride,

587
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,800
it's not about who's
right and who's wrong,

588
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,520
it's about making it fair for them
and their families.

589
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,240
I feel in my heart
it's murder, I do.  Yeah?

590
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,200
I feel like he did
it. But...

591
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,840
legally, and I don't agree
with it,

592
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,200
but, legally,
I can't prove it.  Yes!

593
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,200
I don't like the
cheering though,

594
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,080
that's going to make
us feel away now

595
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,520
cos it feels like
you guys are trying to
put pressure on us.

596
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,800
Not at all!

597
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,760
I think that,
given the circumstances

598
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,200
that we've heard about,

599
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,960
I don't think any
of us

600
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,160
can truly answer that
and be sure...

601
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,360
Be beyond
reasonable doubt.

602
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,840
The facts are only
really based on John's word...

603
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,720
..and I don't think that
everything he's said
can be taken as fact.

604
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,880
But there's just no way that
with 100% certainty,

605
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,200
I could answer
some of those questions.

606
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,920
I was already, like,
wobbling

607
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,400
and then when we talked
about it more,

608
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,080
I was already coming round
to manslaughter.

609
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,000
Like the others,
it is frustrating,

610
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,640
I don't know,
yeah, it's just...

611
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,720
It's terrible, it's a
horrible feeling, innit?

612
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Horrible feeling.

613
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,440
How does anyone get
convicted of murder?!

614
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,480
Cos you can't be sure
of anything, can you?

615
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,320
I don't feel great, to be honest.

616
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,160
I felt a lot of eyes on me,

617
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,920
and a couple of other people,

618
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,400
just waiting for us
to change our minds.

619
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,520
After two days
of deliberation,

620
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,720
only one juror remains
on a verdict of murder.

621
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,600
Are we saying that,

622
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,120
because Helen was abusive
to him,

623
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,400
she deserves...?
No!  No...

624
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,600
EMPHATIC PROTESTATIONS

625
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,680
A part of me feels like,
that like,

626
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,640
she isn't being heard,
she's the one that's dead,

627
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,480
and that's the part that I...

628
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,240
Why I keep going
to murder

629
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,360
because I'm like, "No-one
is backing Helen."

630
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,280
You have to separate
that emotion
from the fact.

631
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,400
I don't want to do that, OK?
You just can't prove it, Kel.

632
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,840
I really want to say murder,

633
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,840
but in the law's eyes I can't.

634
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,360
It's fucking pissing me off.
It really, really is.

635
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,760
I do believe that he knew
what he was doing in that...

636
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,240
In that moment,
but I can't prove that,

637
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,880
If we take the day itself,
none of us will ever know,

638
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,480
in that moment
whether he intended to kill her.

639
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,800
None of us is going to know that.

640
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,560
I want to write murder,
but in the law's eyes, manslaughter!

641
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,760
But that's not going to...
That's how you feel.

642
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,440
You might walk out of here and say,

643
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,680
"I've help convict this man
of manslaughter

644
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,680
"but in my heart, he's a murderer."
Yeah...

645
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,320
There's nothing wrong with that.

646
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,880
We're all gonna to walk out
knowing he killed someone.

647
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,000
That doesn't change what we have
to do...  Yeah.  ..in law.

648
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,000
Can we have a show of hands,

649
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,360
who thinks that it's manslaughter
by loss of control?

650
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,960
I don't think it, but...

651
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,600
So that's a unanimous verdict...

652
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,840
What's the point in having
a jury, then,

653
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,240
if we still have to do what
the law says?

654
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,600
I just don't understand that -
we can't do what we feel,

655
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,640
we have to go on
the law's guidelines.

656
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,640
Fuck the system, can you hear this?

657
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,960
Fuck the system!

658
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,640
Get in there!

659
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,640
It's horrible. It's absolutely...

660
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,720
..horrid, just so horrible, and I
just feel like I'm letting her down.

661
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,720
Have we done her justice?
I don't know.

662
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,440
It's really tough.

663
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,400
SHE SNIFFLES
Sorry, I just can't. Sorry.

664
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,600
As the red jury come to
a unanimous verdict...

665
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,920
I'm not changing my mind, I'm good.

666
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,040
..the blue jury
have reached a stalemate.

667
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,680
Junior, are you unsure
or are you manslaughter?

668
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:09,120
I'm manslaughter.
You're manslaughter, yeah, yeah.
No-one's convinced me otherwise.  OK.

669
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,360
How can I say when I'm really
not sure?

670
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,040
We're not unanimous.  We know.

671
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,560
We are going round
and round in circles,

672
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,880
saying the same thing
over and over again.

673
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,120
And so that does feel like failure.

674
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,960
It feels devastating that we haven't
done the job we were supposed to do.

675
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,880
I'm so stressed.

676
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,920
Really, really stressed.

677
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,600
See ya.  Thanks.

678
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,120
If a jury can't reach
a decision,

679
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,000
the entire trial will
have to be re-run

680
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,720
with a brand-new jury.

681
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,480
A hung jury is the worst
of all outcomes

682
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,000
because it means that we have

683
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,960
to do it again.

684
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,520
Goodness me.

685
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,240
It means that justice
is served to nobody.

686
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,080
And so it's really, really crucial

687
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,600
that the jury come to a decision

688
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,120
during that first trial.

689
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:13,560
I'm told you are as yet
unable to come to a verdict.

690
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:19,040
To be frank, my preference is
always for a unanimous decision,

691
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,800
but the law permits me to
accept a majority of ten.

692
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,120
You are adjourned. Thank you.

693
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,200
I actually feel sick.

694
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,920
I do. I really do as well.

695
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,640
To reach a 10-2 majority
and to avoid a hung jury,

696
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:46,120
one of the jurors on manslaughter
will need to change their verdict.

697
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,000
You and Aaron are, like, set,
aren't you?

698
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,880
It's literally just on Lurelle
to make a decision.  Oh, yeah.

699
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,920
Technically, yeah.
Cos she's the one who is undecided.

700
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,320
Yeah, that is pressure,
that is pressure.

701
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,040
Not having justice would be really
unfair for Helen's children,

702
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,400
her family, and I
don't think that's right,

703
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,440
so I feel the pressure.

704
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,880
I need to come up
with an answer.

705
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,160
So, sorry, Lurelle,
where are you stuck?

706
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,320
This is why
I'm stuck, right,

707
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,600
if it was murder,
that means he chose

708
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,200
to pick up that hammer
and do what he done.

709
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,720
I'm struggling to see
that he chose to do that.

710
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,360
This is really too much.

711
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,960
I just need to be strong in
my decision and go for it.

712
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,720
The fact is that he killed her...

713
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,600
..and when I look at it like that,
he's a murderer.

714
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,040
Can we go round and
just say where we're at

715
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,000
with our verdict,
one by one?

716
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,440
Murder.  Murder.

717
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,520
Murder.  Murder.

718
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,000
Murder.  Murder.

719
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,920
Murder.  Murder.

720
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,280
Murder.

721
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,880
Lurelle?

722
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,720
Apparently murder.

723
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,280
Have I given the
right decision?

724
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,720
Did you do it because
you felt under pressure?

725
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,040
I don't know.

726
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,520
I had no choice but
to come to a decision.

727
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,280
You cool?

728
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,160
So that's our verdict.

729
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,680
I can't believe we actually
did it, though.

730
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,040
It's done.

731
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,600
Both juries are ready
to give their verdicts,

732
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,080
but before they return to court,
the forepersons receive a note.

733
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,080
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
as you know,

734
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,560
"you have been taking part
in a social experiment

735
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,520
"to see how the jury system works.

736
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,640
"In order to understand how
the verdict of every jury

737
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,920
"is influenced by
the people in them,

738
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,040
"we have also been filming another
jury observing this trial."

739
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,720
Oh, my God.

740
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,560
This is crazy.

741
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,360
What?  "They have seen
all the same evidence

742
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,040
"and all been sitting
in the courtroom,

743
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,880
"just the other side of the room."

744
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,320
No way!

745
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,840
"You will shortly be invited
to deliver your verdict.

746
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,320
"The other jury will also
give theirs at the same time."

747
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,640
What the fuck?!
THEY EXCLAIM

748
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,560
In the trial of
John Reisdale,

749
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,960
the two juries are
now aware of each other,

750
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,760
and they are both about
to deliver their verdicts.

751
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,880
I'm nervous going down there now.

752
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,440
Oh, my God.

753
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,160
What's going to happen next?

754
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,160
We've come to a conclusion.

755
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,800
Surely they've got to
come to manslaughter.

756
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,160
For the first time in the trial,

757
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,720
the barrier between
the juries has been removed.

758
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,520
This is a twist to the plot.

759
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,760
It's obvious to me
it's going to be murder,

760
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,360
but now is the moment of truth.

761
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,200
I really did not think it was
going to affect me like this.

762
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,400
Have we done her justice?

763
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,600
I don't know.

764
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,280
What if they've got different
verdicts from us?

765
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,840
Will the forepersons for
both juries please stand?

766
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,040
Madam forewoman,

767
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,400
do you find the defendant,

768
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,480
John Reisdale, guilty or
not guilty of murder?

769
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,320
Guilty.

770
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,760
That's crazy.

771
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:14,720
Told you.

772
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,280
Mr Foreman, do you
find the defendant,

773
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,800
John Reisdale, guilty or
not guilty of murder?

774
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,280
Not guilty.

775
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,760
Thank you very much.

776
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,000
Sit down.  Bullshit.

777
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,920
Ladies and gentlemen
of both juries,

778
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,760
your jury finds the
defendant guilty of murder,

779
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,240
your jury finds defendant
guilty of manslaughter,

780
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,080
by reason of loss
of control.

781
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:55,840
I thank you once again for your
concentration, time and effort.

782
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,240
You are dismissed.

783
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,680
I feel a bit emotional.
You all right?

784
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:10,200
No!  Come on, you're all right.
You've done the right thing.

785
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,600
That was crazy.

786
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,240
Having watched these two juries

787
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:21,800
come to different decisions,

788
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,280
it leaves me really scared.

789
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,640
When you think about
miscarriages of justice

790
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,760
and fairness and transparency.

791
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,320
How did they come to a
different conclusion to us?

792
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,160
That's literally what I was just
saying to Diana, I don't understand.

793
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,880
Life experience really impacted

794
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,040
on some of the decisions.

795
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,320
Did I go with the crowd?

796
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,720
Is that what I did?

797
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,720
I don't understand.

798
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,280
The cliques ganged up on each other

799
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,920
and it became a real power play.

800
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,400
That was surprising.

801
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,320
Now I'm starting to think,

802
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,560
did they get me to change my mind

803
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,920
because they were all
screaming at me?

804
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,880
You OK?  Yeah. I didn't think
I'd be that emotional.

805
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,240
Do you want a cuddle? Come here.

806
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:07,800
It's OK.

807
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,080
Did we put our points across enough

808
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,960
or did we not push as hard as
we maybe should have pushed?

809
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040
Maybe if there was a bigger
character saying something,

810
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:22,040
it might have completely changed
the whole dynamics of the room.

811
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:23,920
Maybe I should have pushed harder.

812
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Maybe I should have.

813
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,200
You know, at the end of the day,

814
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:30,360
who's right or who's wrong,

815
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,360
will we ever know?

816
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,960
Now that I've had this experience,

817
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,160
I don't know whether I would
want to be tried by a jury.

818
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,880
So, how do we fix the system?

819
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:50,240
Firstly, there's a need for greater
transparency in jury decisions

820
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,440
by having reasoned jury
decisions as opposed to

821
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,880
just guilty or not guilty.

822
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,440
I think the second way
we can improve

823
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,760
is by giving jurors better training.

824
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,280
We know that there are other
systems available across

825
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,080
the world that we could look at,
that we could think about,

826
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,800
how juries could be
fit for the future.

827
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,640
I like the Danish system,

828
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,680
where jurors are, in effect,

829
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,440
paid for 12 months,

830
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,560
they'll be trained and they will sit
through as many cases as possible.

831
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,720
Being a juror is a job.

832
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,160
We should be looking at
what works around the world,

833
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,520
rather than simply thinking
our system is the Holy Grail

834
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,600
and nobody should touch it.

835
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,640
There is so much at stake.

836
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,480
Every time I hear the name Helen,

837
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,320
I'm going to think about this.

838
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,520
This will stay with me.

839
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,560
And I know it shouldn't,
I know I should just put it

840
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,160
in the back of my mind.

841
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,760
I mean, I will try,
but it's always going to be there.

842
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,080
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